First off I would like to say thank you to the team for the great framework/tools.  They have helped me an my team develop a variety of applications for a high profile company.

I did want to take this opportunity though to communicate my thoughts on some issues with the the current state of the Away project.  This is not meant to be moan-fest, but it is supposed to illustrate some of the concerns I (and others) have over theproject.

I was relieved to see the 2014 roadmap published a few weeks ago but unfortunately it did not address some of my concerns.

FIrst Away3D core - It seems over the last year much of the focus has been on adding TypeScript and OpenFL support.  While these are welcome additions, I feel as if the core project has been neglected.  Core updates seems few and far between. 

AwayBuilder - This is a terrific tool but it is missing some really core features.  For example - there is no way to preview a camera - essentially making the idea of even adding a camera via away builder useless.  The tool also has some stability issues - it sometimes crashes, it is unable to recover a scene after a lost context.  This tool really has the capability to be great but does need a little more attention.  This github page shows little to no activity over the last several months. 

Awd Exporter for Max - this is another great tool that makes working with Away3D a lot easier but there are some serious issues.  First of all there is nowhere to download the latest binary. The Github page has updated source but no way to get the compiled plugin.  The google code page to download the previous binary has not had an update since 2012.  This leads me to my next point - which is I feel is the most important…

Communication -  Right now, communication for the project is the most prominent issue.  Currently there are 3 sites, awaytools, away foundation and away3d.com - the relationship between these items is unclear and particularly confusing to any people just introduced to the framework.  awaytools in particular has not seen an update in a tremendous amount of time.  This issue ties into all of the other issues as it creates a large amount of uncertainty about the project.  For a user who is deciding which framework to choose - picking Away3D over another toolset becomes a much harder decision.  It goes without saying that documentation is also a key component and I think everyone can agree that this area could be greatly improved as well.

Lastly I would like to touch on Support.  I feel that forum support could be a lot better for users.  I’ve tried to help users where I can but I see a lot of questions go completely unaddressed.  Several other prominent open source projects have much greater moderator activity in the forums.  It really helps with the on-boarding of new users and creates an unofficial documentation system for troubleshooting problems. 

Again, I want to emphasize the gratitude that I have to the Away3D team for creating such a great set of tools,  I would just like to see them maximize the potential of this terrific product set.  I was a big user of Papervision3D and it was painful to see that awesome framework descend into obscurity.  I would hate to see the same thing happen with Away 3D

If anyone cares to comment on this post, please keep the discussion positive.  This is an open source project after all and the contributors are not supporting it for their financial benefit. 

I want to agree on support. I have 7 Posts in this forum, and not a single one has an answer. These may be questions not easy to answer, but still it gives me the feeling to be alone with my problems.
Away3d is a great engine so far, but it looks like developers don’t really care of their users. Of course developers are very busy… always : )

Time to bite…

As for not getting answers.
First whatever your issue is.
Test that issue in the most basic example you can do.
Most of the time you will find your own mistake just by doing that.

If your still getting the issue, then post the question.
WITH A FULL SIMPLE SOURCE AND ASSETS EXAMPLE.
ONE THAT CAN BE QUICKLY LOADED AND TESTED.
Use gist if its a simple no assets source or zip the stuff.

A snippet of code is useless in most of the questions Ive answered.
You may think that’s where the issue is but it may be somewhere else.

Doing that will enable others to see the issue or spot your mistake and provides new users examples or what to watch out for.
It will also serve as an example if a bug exists.

As for all the other issues above Awaybuilder, sites, exporters.
Not for me to say. But they are all planned/known/being developed/waiting to be developed etc.

We want more! we want more!

‘it looks like developers don’t really care of their users’
Seriously?

“developers are very busy…”
It boils down to this simple answer:  the team is small and composed of freelancers. This means client work has priority.

TypeScript and OpenFL
Just like you, we do not want to see so much work go down the drain. Hence why we want extend the engine to more platforms/languages. It comes at a cost of dev resources. You cannot be busy everywhere.

Support, doc, tuts, tools, dev
I will not answer for entire team or the AwayFoundation, but for my personal part, I do what I can from forum/group support, tutorials, engine and tool dev. Almost dayly for the past 7 years now.
As my time is limited, I need make choices. For now, next to some new classes for Away3D AS3 that I need to finish, I also need to try to release an update of Prefab that you can rely on. Meaning no crash, no destroyed data, new handy stuffs etc… deving an engine and tools that people use is really something else than building a project using known api’s and flows. Take my word for it.

All this costs a lot of time, and I mean a lot of time. It has to take place in the eve’s right after you’re done with your daddy’s tasks and your client work…

From your perspective, I do however understand why you guys expect more.
Actually I do too

mrpinc, agree with your issues and mood. The impression that Away foundation lost power with the arrival of Adobe.
There’s no time! Great!
mrpinc, you immediately still to answer that in fact everything is fine, there is a handy tool, which can do everything.
I’ve waved and do not expect anything.
The main thing - there is at least something that possible to use.

mrpinc says it all really. I am extremely grateful for this wonderful open source platform, but concerned that spreading the focus to a bunch of new platforms, will seriously effect the forward thrust of the AS3 effort.

Looking through the feature requests here on the forum, 99.9 percent are for improvements to the AS3 codebase. HAXE/typescript are not what people are looking for. Is this direction what Adobe are asking for?

The biggest improvement that could be made would be for someone to go through the reference (live docs) and provide descriptions of all classes, and usage examples. For example just yesterday I needed a depth of field effect. Knowing there was a class I eventually found DepthOfField3D (http://away3d.com/livedocs/away3d/4.0/)
Unfortunately there was no clues as to how to use it, or even a single line about the parameters.

It would be good with a 4.0 book, or at least to stop selling the obsolete 3.6 books on this site. If I only had a $ for everytime I had to explain the difference…

Without wanting the thread hijacked to be about Forum etiquette, I fully backup JohnBrookes’ comments. I realise english isn’t everyone’s first language, but that’s another good reason to provide a concise code example, and a link to live example when possible.

Cheers!

ooh, left yourself open there mighty

So after lots of guessing playing about with DepthOfFieldFilter. I’m sure you figured it out.
So post an example on the forum for others. Post an example to the Git AwayExamples.
Correct the doc description and submit to Git.

That’s how it should work. Let these clever Dev’s get on with giving us nice things and we can improve the mundane stuff for other users.

As for Books. Meh dead trees with yesterdays code that no one corrects.
All it takes is users to post examples on forums blogs git etc. But very few do that. Wonder why?

The whole typescript/Haxe.

Even though flash STILL ISNT DEAD.
Away has to make sure it can continue. Keeping up with all the latest things the cool kids say is cool :/
Unfortunately clueless clients listen to the clueless cool kids and then want that.

Wouldn’t it be nice for us to be able to tell clients. Yep can do that.

Because the nice Dev’s gave us a familiar framework for free

Finally just as being a user of away. You must have noticed by now.
Sometimes nothing happens for a while, then lots of activity.
If you submit a bug don’t expect it to be instantly fixed. Work round it, find the fix yourself and submit. You will learn lots doing that.

If you submit new code don’t expect it to make it straight into the Branch.
But know this. Others can see it and decide if they want to use it.
The recent matcap stuff a user posted is an example. Dev’s know and yeah it would be good to have it and may be added. For now its on the forum.

This time last year I was wondering the same. Whats happening? Why is no one doing anything. While constantly hearing flash is dead.

Well a year later and flash is still not dead. New AGAL2 stuff to develop. Haxe, typescript/Webgl.
Away has improved and expanded and more is coming.

If you want a community. Be part of that community.
Help.

OK, HTML5 rant.

My experience is that clients care about initial costs, maintenance costs, and penetration in that order. (They may even have some vague ideas about functionality if you’re lucky :o)

Flash/AIR wins hands down on all points, even in 2014 and I don’t see that changing any time soon. (God only know’s why Adobe don’t say that)

Here’s 2 statements you will hear come out of the mouths of web bureau salesmen:
1)“HTML5 runs on devices”,
2)“HTML5 includes WebGL for 3D”.

Both statements are fine in isolation, but no normal salesman takes the time to explain that WebGL generally DOES NOT run on devices (I have 2 Android devices and even they won’t run it in Chrome), and Apple will keep it out of iOS for the same real reason they blocked Flash, ie. it prevents them earning zillions on the app store.

Unfortunately clueless clients listen to the clueless cool kids and then want that.

We need to educate the clients and the cool kids, not to fall into that trap. If you want an alternative to Flash, so people can’t turn off your banner ads, then yes, HTML5 all the way, and you can create it in FlashCC. If you want a 3D app, unless you’re working for Google, you haven’t got the time/patience to make it in WebGL, let alone maintain it and explain why it doesn’t run, crashes in Firefox, etc.etc.etc.

By the time you’ve explained to a potential client it will take 40-100% longer to develop in WebGL (read “cost twice the price”), that you can’t guarantee it will work with the next version of any browser/OS (read “we may have to completely remake it later”), and that it doesn’t run on iPad, they can’t remember why they wanted HTML5 in the first place. When they want 3D (which I’m guessing every Away3D developers clients want) you have 3 choices, Unity, AS3 with Away3d, or WebGL with three.js

If you port Away3D to javascript you get either a version that’s limited to the capabilities of AGAL, or a different framework altogether.
It’s worth remembering, the 3D framework is only going to be part of any project, so while you might relatively effortlessly port your 3d scenes, and some functionality, you’re still left to rebuild your logic, video streaming, UI etc. etc. in the HTML/javascript/CSS/jQuery quagmire.

The coolest thing with Flash/Away combo, that makes it quick to develop, easy to maintain, and stable across platforms, is that you only have one, elegant OOP scripting language to handle everything. Move away from that focus area and there’s other more mature, better documented options to choose from.

I’d be interested to hear what the Away community thinks. Maybe we should run a pole. Do we want an engine dedicated to utilising the unique features of AS3/AGAL/Alchemy, or do we want it to spread out and try and be all things to all web developers? The devs are, understandably, pushed for time, so how will diversifying help?? After all, If any of these ports were trivial to do and maintain, they’d be done by now.

Flash is the most popular, mature and successful platform for cross web app, mobile app and game development. Make the most of it!

Here’s a code snippet you can use in your demo’s if you’re worried about the Flash stigma:

That will prevent 9/10 non-tech savvies even knowing what you used.

Hi John, if there was an easier way, I would gladly help annotate the docs. Trying to work out the ASdoc tags, submitting within the code to GitHub in the hope the notes may make it into the livedocs next time they’re compiled seems a bit too laborious to me, especially as the code/params may well have changed by then. Maybe they could add comments to livedocs as on Adobe.com?

IMHO documenting is an essential part of developing a framework for others to use. Better the guy writing the class explains it, then some rookie has a stab at it months later. The developer is sure to have made an example for testing too. David Lenaerts was always very good at writing detailed blog posts about features he’d added. It would be cool if we could continue that tradition.

Cheers!

(Btw, yes I do develop with HTML5, and every time I feel like I’ve slipped through a timewarp back to 1995!)

Glad to see Adobe aren’t waisting money on mindless advertising.
http://www.designboom.com/design/sagmeister-walsh-compete-remix-adobe-logo-game-show-03-06-2014/
Joshua Davis, what were you thinking about??!

Hey Guys

Been trying to find a spare moment to compose something on this thread, sorry its been so long!

There were a few points that I really wanted to pick up on, and to keep things brief I’ll just itemise responses one by one and sadly you’ll have to do the effort of pairing the response with the original comment

1) The Away3D core had a major update to 4.1.6 addressing the majority of bugs in the issues list around a month ago, so I wouldn’t exactly say its been neglected. If you’re wondering where the beginnings of 4.2 development is currently at, we are waiting for some word from Adobe on precise details of the new feature list coming for AGAL2, so that we can build to a definite spec. Hopefully coming soon!

2) Away Builder was mentioned in the roadmap, so we are obviously planning updates there as well, including fixes. But its good to hear that they will be well received! If you want to work closer with the team to help us prioritise work, please PM me.

3) As it happens, there is some major work going on with the AWD exporter for 3DS that we’ll be looking to complete around mid-April. We’ll obviously announce more when there is something to show.

4) The fragmented sites are a bit of a mess, granted. This is something I have begun discussing with new hosting providers to hammer out a strategy for unifying our content and also providing more ways of sharing code and communicating between registered members. This will hopefully go some way to addressing issue 5) too.

5) The general feeling i get is that you’d like more moderators on the forums. This can be easily done if there are people willing to become moderators. Please PM me if you would like to contribute a little more in that regard. (Special mention to Whypay - so sorry you’ve felt ignored! As John says, there are ways to increase your chances of helpful responses in future)

6) It is incorrect to say that The Away Foundation has lost control because of Adobe. Quite the opposite - The Away Foundation was setup for and wouldn’t exist without Adobe

7) Documentation is always a hard thing to achieve, and simple saying “do it as you go along” doesn’t really help - thats a bit like saying to a cook to wash up as he goes along so that there are no dirty dishes at the end A large amount of documentation was updated in the 4.1 release, and more will be coming with the first few updates of the 4.2 build. Again, PM me if you want to help - a handsome Away3D contributor badge awaits those who dare!

8) Ok, i get the thing about HTML, but if the main problem with clients asking for it atm is the relative complexity, why would anyone be against us trying to make that better? Of course there are missing pieces without the Flash API underneath, but that’s something we are looking at addressing as well. We aren’t expecting things to be production ready for a while yet, but the journey of a thousand miles has to begin with everyone around you thinking you’d be better off spending your time doing something else. Incidentally, this work is being done completely independently of any existing Away3D update schedule.

9) Actually, i think you’ll find clients are listening to Adobe on that front. They trust them way more than the cool kids.

10) Sadly, we don’t get to choose what makes it into print. Will keep pushing tho…

11) I literally had to stop watching. And then wonder why for about 10 minutes. Scary.

I hope that goes some way to help explain our current position. As others have said, a lot of the work is done independent of client or sponsor support and there is only so much spare time people can be reasonably expected to contribute. I do feel like I’ve been neglecting supporting those who might support others though, so I’d like to begin addressing that by speaking to a few of you directly and seeing what we can work out.

The core of our community should be about helping others, if people think they aren’t getting the help they need then realistically that is something we all need to have a hand in making happen. And for truly desperate situations (or those of you who are lucky enough to be working with a budget), the Pro Support services are always at your disposal.

Rob

Just want to add in… I’ve been doing 2D flash stuff for a while now. It’s paid the bills and supported my family over the past 7 years or so, for example.

Now, due to client demands, I am required to venture into 3D. Last time I touched that was from a filmmaking perspective or VRML. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to 3D game frameworks.

My situation probably represents a huge chunk of the Flash dev world out there. Remember- Flash was originally known as a 2D environment and not everyone was making papervision-powered FWA sites when it became cool. For the general good, please consider what I’m saying representative of more than just my opinion. Please, it’s important.

So here it is, the cold harsh truth: if someone (ahem- Adobe!) doesn’t put real resources into improving the documentation and support here- you will probably lose many, many devs over to Unity or comparable platforms.

Right now I have a grace window from my employer to learn Away3D but that grace period won’t last forever. I’m losing hours and hours with really basic stuff.

Yes, gurus, you are 100% right, after enough tinkering one can figure it out. But what you don’t seem to grasp in the above posts is that many of us don’t have time (or can’t bill for time) in order to figure it out. I can show my employer a basically-working game in Unity and explain that it’ll take time to make it more customized. I can’t show them a bunch of asdocs and various sample code and explain that it’ll take time to make anything remotely usable to show. They don’t get code or R&D, they get what they can see and play with (“The Black Triangle” is a great story, but it just doesn’t fly in rapid-cycle low end projects).

Look at Starling for a great example. When I ask a question there, it gets responses. Daniel himself often jumps in to help and explain an issue. It’s alive.

Believe me, I get that you don’t have resources to do this. But I’d say this is a huge problem that both you and Adobe should be looking into seriously. Adobe has deep pockets and they’ve shown an interest in investing resources to become a 3D game dev environment. They should pay someone full-time to just write tutorials and sit on here. They’ll earn their money back on that easily. Maybe not as an indefinite thing, but at least to create enough of an organic community that can then takeover that need (think like what Lee Brimelow and Tom Krcha and the like did to help get 2D GPU stuff off the ground)

The team is on it.

Lol… yeah, been there too

Guess this is more an issue to gripe at Adobe about, not you guys. Hope they’re listening…

Really thankful for all the time y’all have put in on this. It’s incredible.